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Technically speaking, exactly how does IVSm route traffic?
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na9d
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:42 am    Post subject: Technically speaking, exactly how does IVSm route traffic? Reply with quote

Hairston wrote:
na9d wrote:
Maybe it's OK, but I'm just squeemish. I'd prefer to be able to send/receive shows directly from the Replays in additon to from the computers...

Jon

Who says you can't?

- Bob


OK. Let me make sure I understand this correctly.

I can obviously SEND from anywhere because none of my send paths change - right? The only differrence is that if I want to send from IVSM, then everything gets routed through it.

Send w/o IVSM:

Replay -> Router -> Modem -> Internet

Send w/IVSM:

Replay-> IVSM -> Router -> Modem -> Internet

Right?

OK, now receiving is the big issue. If I have everything set up to route through IVSM, it looks like:

Let's say I am using port 65000 for my Replay and 65006 for IVSM:

External IP:65000 -> Router -> IVSM IP:65006 -> Replay:65000

Is that correct?

One of the biggest advantages I see with IVSM is that I can get a SEND progress. I don't really need receive progress since I can look on my Replay for that. So why won't it work just to do sends through IVSM but not have to have your receive ports directed back to IVSM? Or is there communication that needs to take place between IVSM and the receiving Replay during a send?

And if that is the case, if there is communication from the receiving Replay to the sending Replay, how can you send something if IVSis not running? In other words:

Replay:65000 -> Router -> External IP:6500 (internet) = Send path
External IP:65000 -> Router -> IVSM IP:65006 -> Replay:65000

My router is going to do the address and port translation on everything coming back to my Replay. So if for some reason IVSM is down, then I can't send or receive shows period on whatever is proxied through it no matter how I try to send or receive - right?

Thanks,

Jon
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Hairston
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can obviously SEND from anywhere because none of my send paths change - right? The only differrence is that if I want to send from IVSM, then everything gets routed through it.

I think you are making this way more difficult than it actually is. The only difference is that if you want "Send Progress", it must be forwarded to IVSm first (and the "Send Show Notification" originating from IVSm).

Quote:
Send w/o IVSM:

Replay -> Router -> Modem -> Internet

This is actually backwards. The remote Replay (wherever it is in the world) is where a "Send" request originates. So conceptually, the data path looks like this:

Internet (remote Replay) -> Your Modem -> Your Router -> Your Replay

Then your Replay will send the response directly backwards through the same socket.

Quote:
Send w/IVSM:

Replay-> IVSM -> Router -> Modem -> Internet

Again, backwards. It should look like:

Internet (remote Replay) -> Your Modem -> Your Router -> Your Computer (IVSm) -> Your Replay

...because a "Send Request" will always originate at the remote replay.

Quote:
OK, now receiving is the big issue. If I have everything set up to route through IVSM, it looks like:

Let's say I am using port 65000 for my Replay and 65006 for IVSM:

External IP:65000 -> Router -> IVSM IP:65006 -> Replay:65000


Is that correct?

Yep! Looks good to me!

Keep in mind that routing EVERYTHING through IVSm is totally optional. Normally only the Replay you designate as the "Show Send" proxy needs to be forwarded back to IVSm so you can serve shows from your Local Guide.

Quote:
So why won't it work just to do sends through IVSM but not have to have your receive ports directed back to IVSM?

That is EXACTLY how it works! Conceptually you have it backwards again. In Replay terminology those are technically "Send Ports" not "Receive Ports".

Receiving Shows has nothing to do with IVSm, it is direct traffic. Nothing is intercepted (unless the sender is using IVSm )

Basically, you don't need to route a port back to IVSm unless you truly require "Send Progress". If you leave the port-forward entry alone on your router (i.e. forwards directly back to replay bypassing IVSm), the send will continue as usual but you will not be able to see the progress.

Quote:
And if that is the case, if there is communication from the receiving Replay to the sending Replay, how can you send something if IVSis not running? In other words:

If IVSm is intercepting and forwarding send requests (i.e. tracking "Send Progress"), and your computer is not running, than no, it won't work.

You will still be able to "Receive" shows on your Replay with your computer turned off since show "Receiving" is never routed through IVSm. That would get ugly not to mention useless unless you wanted to track "Receive Progress".

Quote:
Replay:65000 -> Router -> External IP:6500 (internet) = Send path
External IP:65000 -> Router -> IVSM IP:65006 -> Replay:65000

Again, this is backwards.

Quote:
My router is going to do the address and port translation on everything coming back to my Replay. So if for some reason IVSM is down, then I can't send or receive shows period on whatever is proxied through it no matter how I try to send or receive - right?

No. You will ALWAYS be able to receive shows. Received shows have nothing to do with IVSm.

A Received show basically uses a direct line out to the internet. This may seem backwards to you BUT, this is actually how it works.

Your Replay makes a request for a "file-chunk":

Your Replay -> Your Router -> Your Modem -> Internet

The remote Replay will receive the "file-chunk" request and send the data directly back through the socket so the data path coming back will look like this:

Internet (remote Replay) -> Your Modem -> Your Router -> Your Replay

Quote:
Thanks,

Jon

No problem bro! Rock on!

- Bob
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hdonzis
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon,
IVS is more like a file transfer where the Replay sending the show is the server. So, the purpose of RDDNS is so that you can contact the sending Replay to request to download the show. The difference is that it is by invitation only. So, while it all starts by requesting to send a show, the actual show transfer happens by the receiving Replay contacting the sending Replay and downloading the show, not that the sending Replay actually pushes the show to the receiving Replay (which is why the receiving Replay has the control of accepting the show -- starting the transfer, pausing and continuing the transfer, canceling the transfer, and most importantly, restarting the transfer).

So, when you receive a show, your Replay contacts the sending Replay using the sending Replay's RDDNS info, but it comes from a standard dynamic port on the Replay, just like when you want to download a file from a server. So, your receiving Replay simply downloads the show from the sending Replay using RDDNS to figure out how to connect to the sending Replay. In this case IVSMagic does not get involved in the path at all and you simply watch your receiving status on the Replay (just like you can watch a file download status).

When you send a show, since the receiving Replay downloads the show from you, the receiving Replay connects to your sending Replay just like you would connect your PC to a server to download a file. If you change your router to route that connect to IVSMagic, then IVSMagic receives the request for the show download and proxies it to the appropriate Replay. Now IVSMagic is in the path for the show download because the receiving Replay has actually made its connection to IVSMagic instead of your sending Replay and IVSMagic is shuttling the traffic between the receiving Replay and your sending Replay. And, now IVSMagic can keep track of the sending (downloading) progress!

That is what is so cool about the whole technique! You don't have to reconfigure anything but your router to pretend that IVSMagic is the Replay server. The Replay still works its normal way -- all of its outside contact still goes through DNNA or WiRNS, or whatever. But, when a receiving Replay wants to receive a show, it ends up contacting IVSMagic by virute of your Router configuration solely, and IVSMagic does the rest to send the show. And, since you had to configure your router in the first place to setup IVS, it is no big deal to change the port forward to IVSMagic instead of the Replay...

Henry
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Hairston
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WoW!

Sweet post. It's good to see another "expert" help out here.

Thanks Henry!

- Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, not to confuse things any more, but it would seem with your ports forwarded to IVSm, technically all requests for outgoing show traffic have to get routed through IVSm, regardless of what you use to send the show, but IVSm can only track the sends registered with it. Because the port forwarding is the same regardless of where the send originates from.

So technically it's not that IVSm doesn't proxy sends sent via other methods, it just passes them through without tracking them since it lacks "context" for that send, so to speak.

Or am I way off?
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hdonzis
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaxH wrote:
OK, not to confuse things any more, but it would seem with your ports forwarded to IVSm, technically all requests for outgoing show traffic have to get routed through IVSm, regardless of what you use to send the show, but IVSm can only track the sends registered with it. Because the port forwarding is the same regardless of where the send originates from.

So technically it's not that IVSm doesn't proxy sends sent via other methods, it just passes them through without tracking them since it lacks "context" for that send, so to speak.

Or am I way off?


Bob's very cool idea if you have multiple Replays is that you only proxy one of them through IVSMagic and you leave the others unproxied. I am assuming that in using the Poopli updater in IVSMagic means that the proxied Replay will look like it has all the shows from all of the Replays configured (not just the shows on that one Replay) so he can choose to send the show from IVSMagic (which will look like it came from the one Replay), or he can send the show from one of the unproxied Replays if he is fooling with IVSMagic for some reason. And, I would also add that you can always easily reconfigure your router to route IVS back to the one original Replay so that you can fool with IVSMagic (if it isn't sending any shows that proxy to any of the other Replays).

IVSMagic isn't going to see anything other than IVS information because that is all that goes through the IVS port, so there is no other content, methods, or context for it to see and ignore. The Replay doesn't use the IVS port number for any other purpose other than to send shows, so IVSMagic won't see any of the other Replay stuff (remember that you didn't need to configure your router for IVS just to use your Replay)...

Henry
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hdonzis wrote:
Bob's very cool idea if you have multiple Replays is that you only proxy one of them through IVSMagic and you leave the others unproxied. I am assuming that in using the Poopli updater in IVSMagic means that the proxied Replay will look like it has all the shows from all of the Replays configured (not just the shows on that one Replay) so he can choose to send the show from IVSMagic (which will look like it came from the one Replay), or he can send the show from one of the unproxied Replays if he is fooling with IVSMagic for some reason...

This is the impression that I'm getting too (I was waiting for most of the "BETA BUGS" to get squashed before installing - looks like it's now ready. ) Setting up one ReplayTV as a "Sender" and sending from "all ReplayTV-compatible units" on your LAN *AND* seeing Transfer Percent Complete sure sounds great!

hdonzis wrote:
...(remember that you didn't need to configure your router for IVS just to use your Replay)...
???

You *always* had to set up port forwarding...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TakeTheActive wrote:
hdonzis wrote:
...(remember that you didn't need to configure your router for IVS just to use your Replay)...
???

You *always* had to set up port forwarding...


NOT TO USE YOUR REPLAY, only to send shows! Obviously with the 5500 series (unmodified) you don't configure port forwarding at all!

So, my point was that since to use your Replay, you don't configure port forwarding. Only to send shows do you need to configure port forwarding. So, even though it is technically true as well, that is how you know that the port forwarding only effects the show sending, not the Replay operation...

Henry
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hdonzis wrote:
MaxH wrote:
OK, not to confuse things any more, but it would seem with your ports forwarded to IVSm, technically all requests for outgoing show traffic have to get routed through IVSm, regardless of what you use to send the show, but IVSm can only track the sends registered with it. Because the port forwarding is the same regardless of where the send originates from.

So technically it's not that IVSm doesn't proxy sends sent via other methods, it just passes them through without tracking them since it lacks "context" for that send, so to speak.

Or am I way off?


Bob's very cool idea if you have multiple Replays is that you only proxy one of them through IVSMagic and you leave the others unproxied. I am assuming that in using the Poopli updater in IVSMagic means that the proxied Replay will look like it has all the shows from all of the Replays configured (not just the shows on that one Replay) so he can choose to send the show from IVSMagic (which will look like it came from the one Replay), or he can send the show from one of the unproxied Replays if he is fooling with IVSMagic for some reason. And, I would also add that you can always easily reconfigure your router to route IVS back to the one original Replay so that you can fool with IVSMagic (if it isn't sending any shows that proxy to any of the other Replays).

IVSMagic isn't going to see anything other than IVS information because that is all that goes through the IVS port, so there is no other content, methods, or context for it to see and ignore. The Replay doesn't use the IVS port number for any other purpose other than to send shows, so IVSMagic won't see any of the other Replay stuff (remember that you didn't need to configure your router for IVS just to use your Replay)...

Henry


Re-reading I realize that you weren't talking about the non-IVS Replay traffic, but rather what happens when you send the show from a proxied Replay which ends up sending the show through IVSMagic. I'll let Bob answer here about IVSMagic keeping track, but I wouldn't think that there would be anything for him to keep track of. The request comes in to IVSMagic for a show, and the purpose of IVSMagic having a guide is so that it can figure out which Replay the show is on and that it should proxy to. I can't think of any reason that IVSMagic would care that you used it to initiate sending the show, but I guess the only value I can think of is that if you use IVSMagic to send a show it can at least start a status indication showing that the show is pending sending whereas if you sent it from the Replay instead then IVSMagic wouldn't know that you even requested to send the show...

Henry
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was only referring to IVS sends, both proxied and unproxied. It would seem that when I send a show via WiRNS now, the port forwarding will still cause the incoming requests to be sent through IVSm, but IVSm must simply forward it to the Replay without tracking it as it would a proxied send.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaxH wrote:
I was only referring to IVS sends, both proxied and unproxied. It would seem that when I send a show via WiRNS now, the port forwarding will still cause the incoming requests to be sent through IVSm, but IVSm must simply forward it to the Replay without tracking it as it would a proxied send.


Yes, good point (and I realized I misread your question)! And, while I would think that it wouldn't matter, I guess if there was any value in it at all, you should obviously use IVSMagic to send the show instead of WiRNS!

Henry
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hairston wrote:
WoW!

Sweet post. It's good to see another "expert" help out here.

Thanks Henry!

- Bob


By the way, I guess I should add that even when you receive a show that IVSMagic gets involved a little bit because in order to send a show, the invitation to receive the show has to be sent to the receiving Replay through the IVS port, which means that it will be proxied through IVSMagic. Once the receiving Replay receives the invitation through its IVS port, it puts the show in the Received catagory for you to decide what you want to do about it, but the actual show download doesn't use the receiving Replay's IVS port any longer.

Which means that if Bob wanted to, he also could present data on receive show requests even though he couldn't keep track of the status of show receives...

Henry
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hdonzis wrote:
Hairston wrote:
WoW!

Sweet post. It's good to see another "expert" help out here.

Thanks Henry!

- Bob


By the way, I guess I should add that even when you receive a show that IVSMagic gets involved a little bit because in order to send a show, the invitation to receive the show has to be sent to the receiving Replay through the IVS port, which means that it will be proxied through IVSMagic. Once the receiving Replay receives the invitation through its IVS port, it puts the show in the Received catagory for you to decide what you want to do about it, but the actual show download doesn't use the receiving Replay's IVS port any longer.

Which means that if Bob wanted to, he also could present data on receive show requests even though he couldn't keep track of the status of show receives...

Henry


Henry,

I am quoting this post since it's shorter than your first and very good response.

I understand basically how the whole send/request concept works with the Replays. SonicBlue was very smart when they set it up that way - that the receiver controls the send.

What I didn't realize was that when the receiving Replay initiates the send that it uses some port OTHER than the configured IVS port. I figured that the Replay always uses the configured IVS port in all instances of passing show traffic. But from the way you described it, the IVS port is really only used for the handshaking of RDDNS and the initial connection.

I still want to think about this and draw it out, but I think I get your point.

As for the number of Replays to proxy through IVSM, here's something I'm not clear on:

If a Replay is set up to proxy through IVSM, all sends will basically appear to be sent from THAT replay regardless of which Replay on your network is serving the show - correct? OK, now if that Replay is set up in your router to have it's traffic routed through IVSM, then shows on that Replay will show in the send status area - right? But shows on other Replays will not show up in that area unless they too have their IVS ports routed to IVSM...Is this correct?

I ask because one of the key features I really like in IVSM is the ability to see send status. But since I serve shows from 2 and soon to be 3 Replays as well as local shows, I want the send status of all shows to show up in IVSM.

Thanks,

Jon
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

na9d wrote:
Henry,

I understand basically how the whole send/request concept works with the Replays. SonicBlue was very smart when they set it up that way - that the receiver controls the send.

What I didn't realize was that when the receiving Replay initiates the send that it uses some port OTHER than the configured IVS port. I figured that the Replay always uses the configured IVS port in all instances of passing show traffic. But from the way you described it, the IVS port is really only used for the handshaking of RDDNS and the initial connection.

I still want to think about this and draw it out, but I think I get your point.


Remember that this is pretty normal for file transfer server/client connections. A specific port number is usually for the server to listen on and few protocols originate from a specific port number. So, like most servers, your Replay is listening on the IVS port number for other Replays to contact it, but when it wants to talk to anything on the network, DNNA, IVS, etc., it comes from a dynamic port just like your PC does...

Quote:
As for the number of Replays to proxy through IVSM, here's something I'm not clear on:

If a Replay is set up to proxy through IVSM, all sends will basically appear to be sent from THAT replay regardless of which Replay on your network is serving the show - correct? OK, now if that Replay is set up in your router to have it's traffic routed through IVSM, then shows on that Replay will show in the send status area - right? But shows on other Replays will not show up in that area unless they too have their IVS ports routed to IVSM...Is this correct?

I ask because one of the key features I really like in IVSM is the ability to see send status. But since I serve shows from 2 and soon to be 3 Replays as well as local shows, I want the send status of all shows to show up in IVSM.

Thanks,

Jon


Bob would be better at explaining IVSMagic, and I love the whole idea but don't have a Windows NT machine at my disposal, so I am just a bystander/observer (I have pleanty of Macs to pick from). As I understand it, just like with WiRNS, you configure IVSMagic for the Replays that you want it to proxy. IVSMagic then goes and (sounds like manually for now) pulls the guide information from the Replays that it is configured to proxy (just like WiRNS does) so that it knows what all shows are available. It then (also manually) sends that data to Poopli (just like WiRNS does) so that Poopli think that the one ISN has all the combined shows from all your configured Replays. And, Poopli people (or is that Poopli Poopli?) simply ask you for a show which isn't required to come from the Replay unit that they requested, it is up to you to send them the show. If you send it from either the proxied Replay (only the shows that are actually on it, either from the unit or from WiRNS) or IVSMagic, then the receiving unit will come back to download the show from that ISN, which will end up proxying through IVSMagic to the appropriate Replay. You can also send a show from the actual Replay other than the proxied Replay and have it use the normal IVS mechanism and not go through IVSMagic at all.

So IVSMagic always looks like the proxied Replay (since it has to use its ISN) but with a bunch more shows if it is pulling guide data from other Replays. If you use IVSMagic's Poopli updater, then there really wouldn't be any requests to your other Replays, so having IVSMagic proxy all the Replays isn't really necessary. Only Replays that you don't configure in IVSMagic will continue to run completely independently and will still require Poopli updating independently (or MyReplayTV.com). It seems confusing and I also thought at first that you needed to configure all of your IVS port forwards to IVSMagic. But, the reality is that IVSMagic is only going to pretend to be one Replay ISN (and, I may have this wrong, I don't know what the value of it pretending to be the ISN of the Replay that actually has the show), so all show sends from IVSMagic are going to come back to the one ISN and to IVSMagic. Since the receiver can't choose where they are getting the show from (since the sender chooses where they are getting the show from) the only reason to configure your router to send all the IVS ports to IVSMagic would be if you were going to send all your shows either from the Replays themselves or from WiRNS, but you wanted all the show sends to go through IVSMagic. Bob thinks it is an advantage to send from the other Replays when you don't want it to go through IVSMagic. But, others want to use WiRNS to send the shows, and that will also make it look like it came from the Replay and not go through IVSMagic unless your port forward all the IVS ports to IVSMagic. I guess having WiRNS and IVSMagic work together would be really, really nice!

Is that clearer?

Henry
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's beginning to be clearer!

If I can configure one Replay to go through IVSM, and still track send progress on all my shows sent from IVSM from any of my Replays, then that is perfect. From how you describe it, that is what it sounds like.

Jon
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

na9d wrote:
It's beginning to be clearer!

If I can configure one Replay to go through IVSM, and still track send progress on all my shows sent from IVSM from any of my Replays, then that is perfect. From how you describe it, that is what it sounds like.

Jon


I haven't read any of Bob's documentation since I haven't even downloaded IVSMagic, but I understand the concept and have been reading all the threads.

My hat's off to Bob for figuring out such an obvious improvement to Replay show sending!!! Obviously not so obvious since no one else thought to do it (but I guess that's what you would say before DVArchive or WiRNS)...

Henry
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hdonzis wrote:
...It then (also manually) sends that data to Poopli (just like WiRNS does) so that Poopli think that the one ISN has all the combined shows from all your configured Replays. And, Poopli people (or is that Poopli Poopli?) simply ask you for a show which isn't required to come from the Replay unit that they requested, it is up to you to send them the show...

Just to clarify:
  • WiRNS can automatically update Poopli at a specified interval
  • Poopli DOES store the show data uploaded by ISN / Profile. Just visit Account -> My Show Database and choose from the available dropdown of Profiles. But, as for "Shared Shows Lists", yes - Poopli doesn't display the (possibly) different sources
Just like WiRNS compliments DVArchive, it certains looks like all of us are going to be adding yet a THIRD piece to the puzzle!

hdonzis wrote:
...I love the whole idea but don't have a Windows NT machine at my disposal, so I am just a bystander/observer...

I wonder if IVSmagic will run under NT4?

Since you, Flavario and I are currently running WiRNS on "antique" hardware with Win98, your reference to "NT" instead of Win2K/XP spiked my curiousity. Certainly, Apache has been around long enough to have a version that runs under NT4, no? [Hmmm...]
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TakeTheActive wrote:
hdonzis wrote:
...I love the whole idea but don't have a Windows NT machine at my disposal, so I am just a bystander/observer...

I wonder if IVSmagic will run under NT4?

Since you, Flavario and I are currently running WiRNS on "antique" hardware with Win98, your reference to "NT" instead of Win2K/XP spiked my curiousity. Certainly, Apache has been around long enough to have a version that runs under NT4, no? [Hmmm...]


My reference to NT was to the family. 2000 and XP are implementations of NT, whereas '95, '98, and ME are the non-NT family. I didn't mention NT4, but only said NT because if I had something I could run NT on, then I could most likely run at least 2000 as well as XP. As I think Bob stated, it might run on NT4, but he hasn't tested it. Personally, if I had something with NT4 on it, I would just upgrade (and probably would have upgraded it by now)...

Henry
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hdonzis wrote:
...Personally, if I had something with NT4 on it, I would just upgrade (and probably would have upgraded it by now)...

What are the specs on your WiRNS PC? (CPU, Memory, etc...)

How many channels / days are you requesting from Zap2It?

When I was setting up my second PC with WiRNS B25, I remember reading through the WiRNS archives of MANY of your messages with logs and noting the HIGH times elapsed between lines. You certainly have to be patient with that setup...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TakeTheActive wrote:
What are the specs on your WiRNS PC? (CPU, Memory, etc...)

How many channels / days are you requesting from Zap2It?

When I was setting up my second PC with WiRNS B25, I remember reading through the WiRNS archives of MANY of your messages with logs and noting the HIGH times elapsed between lines. You certainly have to be patient with that setup...


It's an AMD K6+ 350-450 MHz (don't remember what I stuck in it), with 64 MB RAM. I download 14 days and have just under 80 channels...

Henry
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm.. I'm using a 400 MHz PII and I am a lot faster than you Henry. Maybe it's due to the fact I have more memory? I forget how much I have but I think it's over 128 K.

But the last several posts (including this one) are getting off topic from the purpose of this thread/sticky.... Bob wanted this thread up as a sticky to help clarify the proxying issues.

Jon
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

na9d wrote:
...I'm using a 400 MHz PII and I am a lot faster than you Henry. Maybe it's due to the fact I have more memory? I forget how much I have but I think it's over 128 K...

I'm using a P233 w/128MB and *I'm* a lot faster than Henry also (50 channels / 13 days), which I why I asked.

We can continue this discussion over in the WiRNS Forum *AFTER* we get IVSmagic up and running...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
OK, not to confuse things any more, but it would seem with your ports forwarded to IVSm, technically all requests for outgoing show traffic have to get routed through IVSm, regardless of what you use to send the show, but IVSm can only track the sends registered with it.

Yeah, as of right now, that's how it works. I have some ideas to make it so you don't "need" to do the "Send Show Notification" from IVSm. But as of right now, you need to send it through IVSm to get a "Send Progress" on the show.

Quote:
Because the port forwarding is the same regardless of where the send originates from.

Whoa, let's not get terms mixed up. To me "Show Sending" means the same as "Send Send Notification" and is the opposite of "Show Serving", not to make it more confusing.

Quote:
So technically it's not that IVSm doesn't proxy sends sent via other methods, it just passes them through without tracking them since it lacks "context" for that send, so to speak.

Ok, I agree with this one because "Proxy Sends" or "Shows Sends" or "Send Show Notifications" are all outgoing traffic as far as your network is concerned, and outgoing traffic is not "forwarded".

Quote:
Or am I way off?

Nope! I think you have a decent "Handel" on it now. Good job.

- Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hairston wrote:
Quote:
Or am I way off?

Nope! I think you have a decent "Handel" on it now. Good job.

Thanks for the "Handel" hint! I had no idea WHO you were quoting until the end (It didn't "sound" like Henry. ).
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If a Replay is set up to proxy through IVSM, all sends will basically appear to be sent from THAT replay regardless of which Replay on your network is serving the show - correct?

No. Show Sends will ALWAYS appear to come from the Replay that the Show is physically located on.

I think you guys are getting terms mixed up and making things harder to understand than they really are.

Simply put (to me) a "Proxy Send" is a "Send Show Notification" for a show located in your Local Guide (i.e. hard-drive) sent to make it look like it actually resides on the Replay that is set to be a proxy, that's all. Simple.

Quote:
OK, now if that Replay is set up in your router to have it's traffic routed through IVSM, then shows on that Replay will show in the send status area - right?

Absolutely correct.

Quote:
But shows on other Replays will not show up in that area unless they too have their IVS ports routed to IVSM...Is this correct?


Correct again. IVSm can NOT track a send for a Replay if it's router port is not forwarded to IVSm.

Quote:
I ask because one of the key features I really like in IVSM is the ability to see send status. But since I serve shows from 2 and soon to be 3 Replays as well as local shows, I want the send status of all shows to show up in IVSM.

If you want this to happen, then ALL your Replay router port entries will have to point to IVSm.

Wow dude! Your computer is gonna start to smoke if you have a bunch of show serves going on! Ya better have a monster machine!

- Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As I understand it, just like with WiRNS, you configure IVSMagic for the Replays that you want it to proxy.

Actually, you configure your "router" for Replays you want to "forward".

Replays that are "registered" within IVSm automatically get traffic "forwarded" to them by IVSm (only if a request is received from the router).

IVSm only uses the designated "proxy Replay" to send Local Guide "Show Send Notifications" on behalf of the designated proxy Replay.

Quote:
IVSMagic then goes and (sounds like manually for now) pulls the guide information from the Replays that it is configured to proxy (just like WiRNS does) so that it knows what all shows are available. It then (also manually) sends that data to Poopli (just like WiRNS does) so that Poopli think that the one ISN has all the combined shows from all your configured Replays. And, Poopli people (or is that Poopli Poopli?) simply ask you for a show which isn't required to come from the Replay unit that they requested, it is up to you to send them the show. If you send it from either the proxied Replay (only the shows that are actually on it, either from the unit or from WiRNS) or IVSMagic, then the receiving unit will come back to download the show from that ISN, which will end up proxying through IVSMagic to the appropriate Replay. You can also send a show from the actual Replay other than the proxied Replay and have it use the normal IVS mechanism and not go through IVSMagic at all.

Wow, ya know this isn't exactly how it works, but it is a similar idea and completely valid!

Actually, simply put, IVSm generates a single guide for each Replay registered in IVSm and allows you to send them to Poopli (this is exactly the way WiRNS and the Poopli Updater work). So if you have 3 Replays, you will have 3 guides to send, same as it has always been.

BUT... With IVSm, the Replay you designated as the "proxy" for your Local Guide will have the option of combining the Local Guide with the guide of the "proxied" Replay to make it look like one guide. When a "Show Send Notification" is sent to another Replay for a show in the Local Guide, the other Replay will think the show physically resides on the Replay's hard drive even though IVSm sends it from your computer's hard-drive. Simple concept.

Quote:
I guess having WiRNS and IVSMagic work together would be really, really nice!

I am actively trying to design IVSm around WiRNS so that they are completely compatible. This was my plan right from the get-go.

- Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

na9d wrote:
If I can configure one Replay to go through IVSM, and still track send progress on all my shows sent from IVSM from any of my Replays, then that is perfect. From how you describe it, that is what it sounds like.

No. In order to track send progress, IVSm has to analyze all the data being sent back and forth as far as show serving is concerned. That means simply that if you want to track show send progress for a Replay, it must get first forwarded to IVSm.

If a Replay is configured at the router to directly send the "Show Serve" request to the Replay, how can IVSm track the progress? In short, it can't.

- Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I am still having problems with the traffic thing. Here's my deal:

Main Replay: Jono5000
Internal IP: 192.168.1.60
IVS Port: 65000

IVSM IP: 192.168.1.17
IVSM IVS Port: 65006

Now originally, my router port forward entry was set up as such:

External IP: 65000 -> 192.168.1.60:65000

Then I changed it for IVSM:

External IP:65000 -> 192.168.1.17:65006

The problem is that this didn't work. If I did:

http://external IP:65000/ivs-IVSGetUnitInfo

I get a BLANK screen.

If I do:

http://external IP:65006/ivs-IVSGetUnitInfo

I get a BLANK screen

If I do any other Replay on my network with this command things look fine. But IVSM does not appear to be translating the commands properly. I can also see in the log people trying to connect to my machine to get shows that I have sent them, but it doesn't go through.

I just reset my router back to the way it was before, bypassing IVSM and things work fine.

So what did I do wrong or do I still not "get" it?

Jon
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hairston wrote:
Quote:
As I understand it, just like with WiRNS, you configure IVSMagic for the Replays that you want it to proxy.

Actually, you configure your "router" for Replays you want to "forward".

Replays that are "registered" within IVSm automatically get traffic "forwarded" to them by IVSm (only if a request is received from the router).

IVSm only uses the designated "proxy Replay" to send Local Guide "Show Send Notifications" on behalf of the designated proxy Replay.


I think this was more a difference of terminology, and yours is definitely clearer. I was using the term "configured" as getting the local guide from. That terminology is from WiRNS where you configure the Replays that you want it to pull the Replay Guide from to send to Poopli. And, I guess that is what you are calling the "proxy Replay".

Quote:
Quote:
IVSMagic then goes and (sounds like manually for now) pulls the guide information from the Replays that it is configured to proxy (just like WiRNS does) so that it knows what all shows are available. It then (also manually) sends that data to Poopli (just like WiRNS does) so that Poopli think that the one ISN has all the combined shows from all your configured Replays. And, Poopli people (or is that Poopli Poopli?) simply ask you for a show which isn't required to come from the Replay unit that they requested, it is up to you to send them the show. If you send it from either the proxied Replay (only the shows that are actually on it, either from the unit or from WiRNS) or IVSMagic, then the receiving unit will come back to download the show from that ISN, which will end up proxying through IVSMagic to the appropriate Replay. You can also send a show from the actual Replay other than the proxied Replay and have it use the normal IVS mechanism and not go through IVSMagic at all.

Wow, ya know this isn't exactly how it works, but it is a similar idea and completely valid!

Actually, simply put, IVSm generates a single guide for each Replay registered in IVSm and allows you to send them to Poopli (this is exactly the way WiRNS and the Poopli Updater work). So if you have 3 Replays, you will have 3 guides to send, same as it has always been.

BUT... With IVSm, the Replay you designated as the "proxy" for your Local Guide will have the option of combining the Local Guide with the guide of the "proxied" Replay to make it look like one guide. When a "Show Send Notification" is sent to another Replay for a show in the Local Guide, the other Replay will think the show physically resides on the Replay's hard drive even though IVSm sends it from your computer's hard-drive. Simple concept.

Quote:
I guess having WiRNS and IVSMagic work together would be really, really nice!

I am actively trying to design IVSm around WiRNS so that they are completely compatible. This was my plan right from the get-go.

- Bob


My bad! I thought you were saying that IVSMagic combined the guides from all your Replays so that it could send any show. But, maybe you are saying that you can only combine the guide of one Replay (the proxied Replay) with the shows stored on the local hard drive (or mapped drive).

I guess it makes more sense to me now why you said that you had to forward all of your Replays IVSes to IVSMagic.

I guess my concept was a bit more "magic"! I thought it worked more like WiRNS and pulled down all the guides from all the Replays (like WiRNS does), and then combined them to Poopli to say that the single ISN has all those shows. When the receiving Reply went to download the show, IVSMagic would know which Replay the show was actaully stored on, and would proxy to that Replay. And, I guess it is still unclear to me, then, how if you forward multiple IVS ports to IVSMagic, how it knows which Replay to proxy the session with? And, if you say that you only have one proxy Replay, then how can you forward mutltiple IVS ports to IVSMagic if it only can proxy to the one Replay?

Anyway, it is still really cool! Maybe I just went overboard in my interpretation of how you described that it worked...

Henry
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hdonzis wrote:
And, I guess it is still unclear to me, then, how if you forward multiple IVS ports to IVSMagic, how it knows which Replay to proxy the session with? And, if you say that you only have one proxy Replay, then how can you forward mutltiple IVS ports to IVSMagic if it only can proxy to the one Replay?


Henry,

This is a question I have as well as I begin to delve into this. If I send the command:

http://external-ip:port/ivs-IVSGetUnitInfo

And have the port forwarded to the Replay, it will return that Replay's ISN and nickname. Each replay has a different port at the same IP address.

Now, if one Replay's external port is forwarded into IVSMagic, then what should IVSMagic respond with? I would think that it should respond with the info of the PROXIED Replay. But right now it does nothing.

But go one step further. If I forward ALL my Replays to IVSMagic, then send this command, how does IVSMagic know WHICH Replay the external user is requesting information on? It doesn't as every single Replay will be using the SAME port on IVSM.

Yes, it knows what shows are where due to the fact that you built the guide, but the assumption at the requestors end is that the Replay serving the show is at a unique port. Therefore, the Replay probably sends initial handshaking protocols like the IVSGetUnitInfo command and how does IVSM know how to respond?

I am wondering that if this is going to work properly that you need to be able to assign unique ports in ISVM for each and every Replay.

Now, if things work like we all thought in that the Proxy Replay is made to look like it is sending ALL the shows then this isn't an issue, but according to what Bob is saying, that is not the case in that the Proxy Replay only is there to Proxy local shows...

Jon
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