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1st Replay not getting current shows from 2nd Replay

 
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tomnat
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:16 pm    Post subject: 1st Replay not getting current shows from 2nd Replay Reply with quote

We have two ReplayTVs. One upstairs and one downstairs. They have worked without any problems for quite a while until recently. We moved the TV that is downstairs into another room and now when we see what is on the Replay upstairs, it shows the programs, but nothing that has recently recorded or recently been deleted. (the deleted shows still appear) I haven't tried to play one of the deleted shows yet, but I will try that tonight. I have rebooted both Replays by using the soft reboot with the power button and unplugging them. Any other suggestions??
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hdonzis
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes you have to cycle through your Replays (in the Replay Guide) to get a remote Replay Guide to refresh. Although, it doesn't seem possible if you reboot both Replays for the remote Replay's Guide to be old. After you reboot a Replay, the remote Replay Guides are blank until it refreshes that Replay Guide...

Henry
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tomnat
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately I am still having the problem of our downstairs Replay not getting an updated menu from the upstairs Replay. Last night after I rebooted the upstairs replay it still didn't show me an updated menu on the downstairs replay. If anyone has any ideas that would be great.
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adone36
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How are they comnnected? Wired, Wireless? Are they set to DHCP or static?
Have you checked the cables? Used different ports int he switch?
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TakeTheActive
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: 1st Replay not getting current shows from 2nd Replay Reply with quote

tomnat wrote:
...now when we see what is on the Replay upstairs, it shows the programs, but nothing that has recently recorded or recently been deleted. (the deleted shows still appear)... ...I have rebooted both Replays by using the soft reboot with the power button and unplugging them...

hdonzis wrote:
...it doesn't seem possible if you reboot both Replays for the remote Replay's Guide to be old. After you reboot a Replay, the remote Replay Guides are blank until it refreshes that Replay Guide...

tomnat,

After both a WARM (Power Button) or COLD (Unplugged) Reboot, the Replay Guide for 'remote' ReplayTVs will be EMPTY. Try this experiment:
  • Unplug BOTH ReplayTVs.
  • Plug in ONLY the UPSTAIRS ReplayTV.
  • After it boots, enter 243-Zones | 17-Find other units. There should be none (according to the information you've provided thus far). Press EXIT twice. At this point you should have NO access to the DOWNSTAIRS ReplayTV.
  • Plug in the DOWNSTAIRS ReplayTV.
  • After it boots, enter 243-Zones | 17-Find other units on the UPSTAIRS ReplayTV. There should be one - DOWNSTAIRS. Press EXIT twice. At this point you should have access to the downstairs ReplayTV.

    The Replay Guide you now see *MUST* agree with the contents of the DOWNSTAIRS ReplayTV since the UPSTAIRS ReplayTV was just forced to rebuild it from scratch.
hdonzis wrote:
...Sometimes you have to cycle through your Replays (in the Replay Guide) to get a remote Replay Guide to refresh.

Henry,

Do you have any ideas of what causes this? Randomly I'll find one of my two 'remote' ReplayTVs with an old guide. Sometimes a 243-Zones | 17-Find other units shows it as "(offline)". But other times I have to go back-and-forth between 'remotes' many times, occasionally I even have to play a few seconds of any show, before my 'local' ReplayTV will *FINALLY* "set the flag" that triggers the update.

I saw this mentioned once by one of the "Old Timers" (j.m., sfhub, ?) over on AVS a couple of years ago, IIRC, but there was no solution other than to go back-and-forth several times.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: 1st Replay not getting current shows from 2nd Replay Reply with quote

TakeTheActive wrote:
Do you have any ideas of what causes this? Randomly I'll find one of my two 'remote' ReplayTVs with an old guide. Sometimes a 243-Zones | 17-Find other units shows it as "(offline)". But other times I have to go back-and-forth between 'remotes' many times, occasionally I even have to play a few seconds of any show, before my 'local' ReplayTV will *FINALLY* "set the flag" that triggers the update.

I saw this mentioned once by one of the "Old Timers" (j.m., sfhub, ?) over on AVS a couple of years ago, IIRC, but there was no solution other than to go back-and-forth several times.


Stale data in the built in webserver / flaky httpd. To the best of my recollection, no one ever found a fix (possibly a VxWorks issue).
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hdonzis
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: 1st Replay not getting current shows from 2nd Replay Reply with quote

TakeTheActive wrote:
hdonzis wrote:
...Sometimes you have to cycle through your Replays (in the Replay Guide) to get a remote Replay Guide to refresh.

Henry,

Do you have any ideas of what causes this? Randomly I'll find one of my two 'remote' ReplayTVs with an old guide. Sometimes a 243-Zones | 17-Find other units shows it as "(offline)". But other times I have to go back-and-forth between 'remotes' many times, occasionally I even have to play a few seconds of any show, before my 'local' ReplayTV will *FINALLY* "set the flag" that triggers the update.

I saw this mentioned once by one of the "Old Timers" (j.m., sfhub, ?) over on AVS a couple of years ago, IIRC, but there was no solution other than to go back-and-forth several times.


I can certainly theorize about this because it makes sense for them to try to cache this information. The local Replay keeps a snapshot file of every remote Replay. That is what allows it to have "stale" information in the first place. It probably makes the Replay Guide code simpler because the same code simply works on a single file on the hard drive (just like extract_rtv5 -ds) and so keeping the remote Replay snapshot files means that the Replay Guide doesn't really care what it is displaying, it is probably just handed a disk file to display (this is also what allows you to be able to get your show recording information for a remote Replay with Guide2XML).

The Replay already uses standard HTTP protocol to communicate with everything else. The HTTP protocol already contains a "not changed" response, which the Replay uses in such things as downloading software updates and such. This is what makes your browser run faster when it already has up to date pages in its cache.

I haven't sniffed what happens when you cycle through the Replay Guide, but I can assume two things:

1. That if the Replay has a snapshot file already, that it doesn't necessarily query the remote Replay for an updated snapshot file. The snapshot file has the time stamp both in the directory and in the name of the file:

Code:
12/31/2000 18:00        <DIR>  ./user/ReplayChannels/SnapshotDir
12/31/2000 18:00        <DIR>  ./user/ReplayChannels/SnapshotDir/RemoteSnapshots
07/05/2006 17:45        <DIR>  ./user/ReplayChannels/SnapshotDir/RemoteSnapshots/RTV5060xxxxxxxxxxx
07/09/2006 13:02        59232  ./user/ReplayChannels/SnapshotDir/RemoteSnapshots/RTV5060xxxxxxxxxxx/1152414012
07/05/2006 17:45        <DIR>  ./user/ReplayChannels/SnapshotDir/RemoteSnapshots/RTV5160xxxxxxxxxxx
07/10/2006 19:00        98928  ./user/ReplayChannels/SnapshotDir/RemoteSnapshots/RTV5160xxxxxxxxxxx/1152568812
07/05/2006 17:45        <DIR>  ./user/ReplayChannels/SnapshotDir/RemoteSnapshots/RTV5040xxxxxxxxxxx
07/10/2006 20:20        58192  ./user/ReplayChannels/SnapshotDir/RemoteSnapshots/RTV5040xxxxxxxxxxx/1152568813
07/12/2006 01:19        75484  ./user/ReplayChannels/SnapshotDir/Snapshot-Local-1152685197


Where the name of the remote snapshot file is also the date of the file. For example, the remote 5040's file name is 1152568813, which comes out to be:

Code:
$ date -s 1152568813
Mon Jul 10 17:00:13 CDT 2006


So, whether the Replay uses the file name (probably so since they bothered to name it that way) or the file date, I'm not sure, but the Replay might possibly use this date to decide if it should bother to query the remote Replay or not for an updated snapshot file.

2. Since the Replay has the date of the remote snapshot file, when it queries the remote Replay for an updated snapshot file, it can use the "if changed" query and supply the date of its current file (the way a browser refreshes a cached webpage). So, then it would be up to the remote Replay to answer if the data has changed or not. In this case, maybe the remote Replay doesn't respond that the data has change if the file time is too close to the current time.

I guess it might be pretty simple to run a sniffer on a WiRNS or DVArchive PC and see what traffic it receives when you cycle through the Replay guide. But, if you want to see how it really works, then you'd need a hub or a managed switch to be able to see the traffic between the two Replays to find out for sure what is going on. Either you'll see that as you cycle through the Replays that it doesn't even bother to query the remote Replay for an updated snapshot file, or you'll see it query the remote Replay for an updated snapshot file and the remote Replay will respond with "not changed".

As you can see from my directory listing above, the local snapshot file, Snapshot-Local-1152685197, also has a date associated with it. In my case its:

Code:
$ date -s 1152685197
Wed Jul 12 01:19:57 CDT 2006


So, that means that a remote Replay can easily decide if its snapshot file has been updated since the time that the other Replay is asking about. Just like a web server checks the date of the page refresh requests to decide if it should send an updated page or not...

Henry
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tomnat
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adone36

Thank you for the response. My Replays are connected with cables. I'm actually not sure whether they are DHCP or static. It has been a long time since I set them up originally. I have not switched the ports on my router to see if that is the problem. I will try that though. I haven't checked that before mainly because everything worked flawlessly for years until I just recently relocated our downstairs replay to a different room.

TakeTheActive

I appreciate your suggestion. So are you saying that I should start with both a warm and cold rebbot of both machines and then proceed to the list of instructions you mentioned? After going through the steps is this a fix for the problem we are having or will I have to do this all the time?

Thanks again everyone. I will let you know what happens.
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hdonzis
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: 1st Replay not getting current shows from 2nd Replay Reply with quote

TakeTheActive wrote:
hdonzis wrote:
...Sometimes you have to cycle through your Replays (in the Replay Guide) to get a remote Replay Guide to refresh.

Henry,

Do you have any ideas of what causes this? Randomly I'll find one of my two 'remote' ReplayTVs with an old guide. Sometimes a 243-Zones | 17-Find other units shows it as "(offline)". But other times I have to go back-and-forth between 'remotes' many times, occasionally I even have to play a few seconds of any show, before my 'local' ReplayTV will *FINALLY* "set the flag" that triggers the update.

I saw this mentioned once by one of the "Old Timers" (j.m., sfhub, ?) over on AVS a couple of years ago, IIRC, but there was no solution other than to go back-and-forth several times.


I have been doing some experimenting recently with WiRNS sending snapshot files to the Replay, and what I notice is that the Replay responds instantly to either WiRNS or DVArchive changing the guide information. So, it doesn't appear that the problem has to do with the Replay not updating when told to, but rather that it must be that a Replay doesn't unnecessarily update the snapshot it is sending right away. I would still have to sniff the network to be sure, but I'm 99.99% sure that I would see the Replay ask the other Replay for a guide update and that the other Replay would respond that the guide info was up to date rather than sending an updated guide...

So, I think that the cycling around the the Replay guide waiting for a refresh is just a way to make time pass. While it's possible that asking the remote Replays for updating guides gets them to update their guide, I suspect it's just a way to pass time such that the remote Replay's guide gets updated...

Henry
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hdonzis
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st Replay not getting current shows from 2nd Replay Reply with quote

hdonzis wrote:
TakeTheActive wrote:
hdonzis wrote:
...Sometimes you have to cycle through your Replays (in the Replay Guide) to get a remote Replay Guide to refresh.

Henry,

Do you have any ideas of what causes this? Randomly I'll find one of my two 'remote' ReplayTVs with an old guide. Sometimes a 243-Zones | 17-Find other units shows it as "(offline)". But other times I have to go back-and-forth between 'remotes' many times, occasionally I even have to play a few seconds of any show, before my 'local' ReplayTV will *FINALLY* "set the flag" that triggers the update.

I saw this mentioned once by one of the "Old Timers" (j.m., sfhub, ?) over on AVS a couple of years ago, IIRC, but there was no solution other than to go back-and-forth several times.


I have been doing some experimenting recently with WiRNS sending snapshot files to the Replay, and what I notice is that the Replay responds instantly to either WiRNS or DVArchive changing the guide information. So, it doesn't appear that the problem has to do with the Replay not updating when told to, but rather that it must be that a Replay doesn't unnecessarily update the snapshot it is sending right away. I would still have to sniff the network to be sure, but I'm 99.99% sure that I would see the Replay ask the other Replay for a guide update and that the other Replay would respond that the guide info was up to date rather than sending an updated guide...

So, I think that the cycling around the the Replay guide waiting for a refresh is just a way to make time pass. While it's possible that asking the remote Replays for updating guides gets them to update their guide, I suspect it's just a way to pass time such that the remote Replay's guide gets updated...

Henry


OK, I'm pretty darn sure this is the Replay itself doing this. I have changed some show recordings settings on a Replay, and even WiRNS is showing the old recording settings after refreshing the Replay. And, I can look at the Replay's guide to see that the new settings have definitely been changed, but the Replay is still sending the old information out. So, it looks like it takes some time for the Replay itself to build a new guide to send out to the remote Replays...

Henry
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adone36
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't realize you were talking about the "channels" as opposed to the "guide". I mean, when cycling through the channels, shows are updated almost instantly. But I noticed a long time ago that if you change the options on a record channel on a remote Replay, it takes a LONG time to update that info as seen from remote units. And I have found NOTHING that will force it. It just eventually happens.
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hdonzis
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adone36 wrote:
I didn't realize you were talking about the "channels" as opposed to the "guide". I mean, when cycling through the channels, shows are updated almost instantly. But I noticed a long time ago that if you change the options on a record channel on a remote Replay, it takes a LONG time to update that info as seen from remote units. And I have found NOTHING that will force it. It just eventually happens.


What I found today was that I went directly to the Replay and changed the options on THAT Replay, went to a remote Replay, and it STILL showed the previous options! Thinking that maybe it was the protocol answering that the snapshot had not changed, I used ReplayPC to download the guide snapshot, and the freshly downloaded guide snaphot showed that the recording options had not changed! I then used a remote Replay to change the options once again, cycled away from the Replay and then back, and then the options had changed! I re-downloaded the guide snapshot with ReplayPC, and sure enough, now they had changed. In addition, two other shows that I also changed on THAT Replay at the same time finally changed at the same time!

So, I have eliminated several things:

1. That changing a recording schedule remotely doesn't update right away. If I look at the schedule on the remote Replay itself, it HAS changed! But, I thought that maybe changing it remotely didn't allow the guide snapshot to update (just because the recording changes, the snapshot still has to be rebuilt).

2. That the Replay was reporting that the guide snapshot hadn't changed. The protocol allows for the remote Replays to indicate that the guide snapshot has not changed. This is what allows you to cycle through the Replays without making it pause each and every time. It only pauses if the remote Replay indicates that the guide snapshot had changed. HOWEVER, since I used ReplayPC to download the snapshot, which does not request to be indicated if the guide snapshot has changed, but rather to receive a fresh guide snapshot, and that snapshot did not show the recording changes that were showing on THAT Replay, then it indicates that it's not the Replay saying that the guide snapshot has changed, but rather than the guide snapshot has actually NOT changed even though the Replay itself is showing the changed recording schedules.

3. That the Replay requesting the remote guide snapshot wasn't updating properly. So, even though an updated guide snapshot was sent to the Replay, that it still didn't update the remote Replay's guide. However, when using DVArchive and WiRNS to act as remote Replays and changing their guide snapshots (by changing shows), viewing them from a remote Replay updated INSTANTLY, each and every time.

So, through process of elimination, I can see that even though the remote Replay's recording schedules are being changed, and can see on that Replay that they have actually changed, and can see that the remote Replay is actually sending a guide snapshot versus simply indicating that the guide snapshot has not changed, that the guide snapshot it is sending is a stale guide snapshot and that it hasn't actually updated the guide snapshot it is sending even though displaying the Replay Guide on THAT Replay shows the correct, updated show recording information. So, that means that either remote or local show recording changes simply update memory which is displayed in the Replay Guide. But, I don't know if the file on disk actually gets updated right away and the guide snapshot being sent doesn't update, or that the file on disk doesn't get updated right away and that is what is sent as the guide snapshot. If it doesn't get written to disk, I would guess that would mean that it would be possible to "lose" schedule changes if something were to happen before they got committed to disk. However, if they are written to disk but not updated in the guide snapshot send, then it simply means that whatever mechanism which caches the guide snapshot file for sending doesn't always check that the file has changed...

Henry
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